Plagiarism - what should moderators do?

blindfish

The problem is it's simplistic to think of Processing in terms of people who just want to learn to code. When I was using it for my arts-based MA project a few years ago I wasn't being assessed on my ability to code - on the contrary I was told that my plans were beyond their ability to even provide technical support. Ergo: some people do come here looking specifically for code. They don't necessarily have to understand the full workings; just how to slot it into their project. So asking everyone for an MCVE as a matter of course isn't appropriate or welcoming.

I commented on this thread partly because I see people looking to ban contributors because they're providing full-code answers. I think it's right to guide people to make more productive contributions and provide them with constructive criticism (I now regret using the expression 'name and shame' - sorry @GoToLoop); but the answer to the plagiarism issue isn't simply to ban people and come up with dogmatic rules that will make this place unwelcoming and unhelpful.

The sad reality is the internet has made plagiarism far too easy for students. Ultimately it's their loss if they resort to it - whether they pass or not they won't have the knowledge to apply their qualification in practice - and it is their responsibility. The sort of questions they're being asked have been answered many times over already online and they'll find an answer to copy from somewhere if not here, regardless of our efforts. The best the forum can do is make some effort to flag obvious homework questions and avoid providing full-code answers to these.

If we simply treat every question as possible homework, always ask for MCVEs (when more productive responses could be made) and complain when even a few lines of code are posted in response; then this place will lose its appeal and will lose contributors. As I think I said above: this is an online forum; not a classroom. There do need to be some guiding principles; but please don't burden us with inflexible rules.

Chrisir

good post! That's great!

tlecoz

"good post! That's great!"

+1

_vk

+1 !!

KevinWorkman

The sad reality is the internet has made plagiarism far too easy for students. Ultimately it's their loss if they resort to it

The problem with this thinking is that many students don't even know that using a full-code solution is plagiarism. More importantly, they don't realize that using full-code solutions defeats the entire point of the homework: to learn the process of breaking down a problem and working on one small problem at a time.

Say a student posts "how do I display a grid" and somebody simply posts code that does it. What has the student learned? Especially if the code is convoluted and hard to understand, which many of these posts are. What happens when the student takes a test that requires a similar process?

All I'm saying is that a better answer would be to help the student through the process. In this case, maybe tell them to get out a piece of paper and a pencil and draw some example grids with coordinates at each line. Do they notice a pattern? Can they write a sketch that draws just one of those lines? Work from there. That teaches them the process, which is the entire point of the homework.

If we simply treat every question as possible homework, always ask for MCVEs (when more productive responses could be made) and complain when even a few lines of code are posted in response

Nobody is saying that's what we should do.

There do need to be some guiding principles; but please don't burden us with inflexible rules.

So far, that has been my request: we need some guiding principles. But what should happen when users ignore those principles? If the answer is nothing, then what's the point of them?

FFD8

Super interesting thread here and great to read the varying POVs on the topic.

As both a user/amateur/hobbyist/teacher/etc – I don't have a problem with full code solutions and find theme extremely helpful for learning. [dodging tomatoes now]

When teaching students who have never touched a variable before, it's obviously important to break it down into bits of useful tools that they can combine on their own during an assignment [creative exploration] outside of class. I disagree with the math analogy, since Processing is all about bringing programming to an artistic audience who might not have otherwise installed an IDE. If a student shows up looking to 'cheat' on their homework and get an easy out.. so be it for them– they lose if they don't analyze the answer. I'm a huge supporter of learning from example- taking a snippet of code that works, then dissecting and changing every number/var to understand how it works- slowly revealing why function X produces Z. In class or online tutorials, it's broken down and explained, in a forum or IRC, it's usually a case of 'no idea, who/what to ask'. I'd make an analogy towards web CSS or front-end JS forums, where it's oh so common to provide answers in the form of a sandbox functioning code (jsfiddle, codepen) that one can simply copy+paste if they want.. but quickly enables anyone to learn through tweaking. Totally agree with @tlecoz argument for sleeping at night. If would be great if the Processing reference page borrowed from php.net's user contributed notes for functions...

I can't even count the number of times I've hit a bump while trying to make something simple more complex, run into a problem I didn't know, google it, reach a forum with the similar question asked, quickly analyze the coded answer and either sandbox it for learning if complex or if it was a function I didn't know existed, only need to grab one line, and proceed. Yes homework Q+A+$ = bad.. but maybe the problem starts with the form of homework being given. There's definitely a need and place for providing thorough explanations and guiding the hungry towards a tackle shop, but that all depends on the OP formatting of a question (which should be ignored if proving lazy).

I say give the wo/man a coded fish and they'll learn how to turn it into a frog...

KevinWorkman

I don't really disagree with anything you're saying.

I disagree with the math analogy, since Processing is all about bringing programming to an artistic audience who might not have otherwise installed an IDE.

Then how about an art analogy? If this was an art forum, and somebody said "how do I paint a picture of a house" and then somebody else said "here, let me mail you a painting of a house that you can turn in as your own"... that'd be messed up, right?

I'm a huge supporter of learning from example

I agree that learning by examples is one of the great things about programming, and especially Processing. I'm not arguing that we should stop using examples.

The problem is the blatant "this is my homework" "okay here, I did your homework for you" posts.

It's one thing to answer a question with some example code that does something similar. It's another thing entirely to do an entire assignment for a student, which is what's happening here.

It gets more complicated because it's a fuzzy line between somebody trying to provide an example and somebody trying to show off by doing entry-level homework. My only argument is that we need to have a more "official" policy on the latter.

I say give the wo/man a coded fish and they'll learn how to turn it into a frog...

I like this. The problem is when the assignment calls for fish to be turned into fish sticks, and somebody just hands over a box of fish sticks! (Have I stretched this metaphor too thin yet?)

FFD8

Then how about an art analogy? If this was an art forum, and somebody said "how do I paint a picture of a house" and then somebody else said "here, let me mail you a painting of a house that you can turn in as your own"... that'd be messed up, right?

Fortunately for them, they have 'appropriation art' = anything is allowed. In this case, sounds like a great form of mail art...

In that gray zone of answering homework, I have no problem with the show off problem solver. Power to them for taking time out of whatever high paying coding gigs they surely have. Again, I'd lay more blame on the student for being lazy and/or the assignment that is possible for someone else to create. In the art analogy- a house can be interpreted infinite ways.. in finding prime numbers, perhaps not so many. If one posts 'make me look creative with x functions' than it would be more amusing what type of full-code answers appeared. Then again, they might as well run to openprocessing.org to be 'inspired'.

I wonder what would happen if homework got it's own category. It could weed out the questions from other areas and might lead to some interesting mentoring/examples/whatever.

...fish to be turned into fish sticks...

That sounds like a really complex process.. conveyer belts, preservatives, packaging, ... - but it's probably just a function the student doesn't know about, ie. fishStick(fish, 10); in which example code would be helpful. And yes of course, just how much code is needed to help that out is the debate, but I wouldn't red-flag anything that gave away too much.

Chrisir

I fully agree with FFD8, learning happens in many ways...

koogs

http://forum.processing.org/two/discussion/11059/i-need-help-with-movement

seriously