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What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science (Read 4888 times)
What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Nov 17th, 2008, 10:55pm
 
There's an article in the New York Times today about falling enrollment of women in computer science programs:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/16/business/16digi.htm

I've noticed that there are more men than women active in the Processing community. This is depressing. Maybe this is partially because of the social factors discussed in this article? Something else? Thoughts?
Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #1 - Nov 18th, 2008, 5:19am
 
I agree it's depressing, as is the overall trend of declining enrollments in CS for both sexes. One bright spot though is the rapidly emerging interest in the digital humanities. Mary Flanagan's recent appointment at Dartmouth was a very positive move in this regard.

We may not have gender parity yet, but I'm pretty certain that Processing (globally) is one of the good forces of change helping to correct this imbalance.
Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #2 - Nov 18th, 2008, 8:08am
 
hm, this is interessting. i had the feeling it's just the other way around. not teaching computer science but processing: this term i have about 50 students of which almost 40 are girls. this is the same picture i have every term ...
Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #3 - Nov 18th, 2008, 8:33am
 
I suspect there are a lot of girls using Processing, but that they mostly code with others, ie at school, or in teams. Not so much on their own. That's at least been the problem with the girls I've taught. They love to code when they have 'help' right next to them, but not so much on their own.

Processing has quite a steep learning curve, expecting the user to have a general knowledge about correct syntax, and know what a variable and a function is.
Of course there are tutorials, and examples, and that's how a lot of people learn. But if you don't have any experience in coding.. It could be a different world.
I don't know how we could combine the worlds.

Maybe a click and play code editor, with Buttons for all the commands. I don't know.. just throwing out ideas.
Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #4 - Nov 19th, 2008, 12:05am
 
OK. So notice that we've had four men add to this discussion so far and no women yet.
Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #5 - Nov 19th, 2008, 1:05am
 
Some of the best programmers I know got their degrees in English lit before Computer Science. My opinion is that the analytical thinking taught in literature helped them learn to better break down and solve large engineering problems. The numbers there (English lit programs) are probably in favor of women so that makes me think it's not a distaste for problem solving, it must be purely based on interest in computers.

For me, I was raised surrounded by computers and video games and spent the bulk of my time between the two. I think the average girl spends most of her time playing with friends and doing other "girly" activities (reading, drawing?) that their parents assume they will enjoy more. Therefore in general they become good at things unrelated to computers so it never holds their interest in later life.

Essentially, I blame parents and our current culture. But it's changing, slowly. My sister and a lot of her friends played video games quite a bit, and since have been doing more technical things with computers (like web design). I think it will take a few more generations though before we see a re-balancing of sex in programmers.

Jack

Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #6 - Nov 19th, 2008, 7:53pm
 
Hmmm this perennial topic has lured my from lurkdom, I'll be the first female coder to post then. I hope I am not alone.

I don't have any firm answers merely anecdotal evidence, generalisations and personal experience.
There are a few aspects I think.
1. Do girls spend less time with computers, why?
2. Why don't women study computer science?
3. Why are there fewer women in computer related jobs?
4. Why aren't women visible in coding related social spaces such as irc and forums?

My experiences in these areas (disclaimer: this may not be indicative of the general reactions and viewpoints among women and is not intended to offend anyone)
1. Imo most games suck, I hate mangling things, leaving bloody messy trails, wielding huge guns. I loved Abe's Odessey/Exodus and lately Spore because things are more open ended with multiple solutions. Which may explain why I like coding. Other than that, since the first blue rays from the tv connected to ZX81 hit my face I have not been able to tear myself away from devices with processors that can be commanded. So I am not the right person to ask.

2. This is a difficult one for me too since I studied so long ago and at that time there were 4 girls in a class of 40. I don't think it has changed though. What I can say from experience getting my sister and mother to be computer involved is that as soon as the computer becomes a communication device rather than an infuriating unpredictable beast things progress very quickly. Does anybody say that girls are worse at operating cell phones, imo not really. That and the concept that it is ok not to know how to do something, it doesn't mean you are stupid, because part of the skill is finding things since things change so quickly. Women are good with finding things but that isn't one of the skills that gets a lot of limelight.

3. Well if fewer women qualify there will be fewer in industry. Also unfortunately I have repeatedly found my renumeration less than colleagues, albeit possibly due to the fact that I hate going into a battle to fight for the right size pay packet.

Generally too I think it would benefit both men and women and companies if more flexible working arrangements were the norm, ie job sharing and sub 40 hour work week. This would encourage men to take part of the family responsibilities which would free up women to be more career focused. In my experience it is still largely women who take family responsibilities to the detriment of a career. Also typically in a new job I find I have to prove my worth more stringently than male colleagues as somehow since men aren't used to having women coders around there is an expectation that they can't code. The best advice I have for women going into the field though is to have a thick skin and to work from the premise that your colleagues aren't sexist and mostly they won't be. I have had the odd "if she can iron we can teach her to solder comments" but that is soon solved by ignoring the comment and finding a bug in the commenter's code and preferably dealing with situations using humour.

4. There probably are fewer women out there who have coding interest and maybe too since there are so many guys in the forums/irc women don't want to open their mouths, I guess the reputed clubhouse thing. I think if there are visible women talking other women will feel happier to say something. Luckily I haven't been harrassed on irc as has been reported, though I did choose a gender neutral nick when frequenting some cg modeling irc channels populated largely by people who had a penchant for big-breasted-girl-androids-with-big-guns. As for this forum, I have been lurking since I have been so busy and I had a technical login issue.

Having said all of that I think older people and people not hailing from "western first world" communities will have similar problems. One could equally ask why are there so  few people over 60 in the coding forums or why are there so few people from eg Mozambique in the coding forums or the computer profession for that matter. Which takes us to the whole Digital Divide issue ...

For recurring discussion on the topic there is lots to read at the ubuntu-women mailing list archive, https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-women/
check February 2008, March 2008, April 2008, May 2008
Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #7 - Nov 19th, 2008, 7:55pm
 
I promise to write shorter posts in future.
Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #8 - Nov 29th, 2008, 10:52am
 
As the second (?) female programmer to post to this discussion, I feel a bit "typed" in advance of myself.

My background seems to follow the logic that WebDext suggests, in that I have a doctorate in English Literature, but returned to do further graduate work with a programming focus (although not in a traditional computer science stream, but rather in interactive arts and technology).  My research, specifically, deals with investing "girls" with foundational programming skills through game design and development (in tangible computing environments), so I have a particular interest and also a sense of self-reflection bound up with this topic.

I think that there is a rich sub-culture of "girl coders" who operate on the margins of what is considered normative "programming"  (hard coding?).  "Girls" are deeply interested and fluent in web technologies and design (considered "soft" programming?), which has not yet been integrated into traditional computer science training, but is no less relevant and requires similar engagements with algorithmic thinking.  

In my opinion, it was a group of amazingly talented teenage "cam girls" who revolutionized blogging culture in the 1990's and elevated web design and web programming to the level of "art" (recall "the Bitch" and "antigirl.nu/lipgl0ss assassin".  These "girls" were self-taught and highly skilled coders (php, css, html), yet these "design" languages seem not to be perceived as having any kind of purchase within comp sci discussions.  Why?

That said, I see close connections between girl coders as computational "designers" and the strength of an environment like Processing for engaging more women in programming practice.  And not because Processing makes coding "easy," because it doesn't precisely do that, but because it constructs a space which facilitates opportunities for exploratory programming (a form of programming which I see as more "authentic" to the ways in which women creatively and critically work, more generally).




Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #9 - Nov 29th, 2008, 4:35pm
 
maiatoday, pantopicon:

thank you for the posts. i think the point that processing doesn't make programming "easy" but it encourages a different approach of "exploratory programming" is essential.

Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #10 - May 4th, 2009, 3:50am
 
I had read that article and definately agree. There are hardly any females other than myself studying this at grad school and in general the technological classes are male dominated, I guess it is seen as "unfeminine" to be into technological engineering stuff these days!
The point someone mentioned that women tend to code in groups at school rather than alone is somewhat true in my experience.
Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #11 - May 5th, 2009, 6:32pm
 
I had the great priviledge to sit in on the Senior CS thesis presentations at Bryn Mawr (womens college) last week. The projects were technically strong (many utilizing neural nets and robotics), conceptually oriented,  and waaay out of the box (for standard CS). Much credit needs to go to the Bryn Mawr CS faculty who have been reinventing the CS major–especially targeting less traditional populations.

I'll also report that Processing is being integrated into their CS curriculum!
Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #12 - May 6th, 2009, 5:56am
 
They're the smart ones -- there's no job security at all in CS!
Re: What Has Driven Women Out of Computer Science
Reply #13 - Nov 15th, 2009, 4:20am
 
I think that because most programming languages are written by men, the female mindset is not very attracted to them. Anyone who has listened to males discussing the innards of some mechanical object would understand this.
Women like everything to be colour coded and everything in its place. Socks in the sock drawer and special clothes on a hanger in the wardrobe. If you have spent most of your life tidying up after males and finding lost objects, its a turn off trying to find the object that will allow you to perform some task and then finding that the manual is written in double Dutch.
Processing is mostly a tidy language, it allows you to be productive without having to spend months researching how to use the doHickey which was written for version 5.7.3 but doesnt work with the fruity platform and has now been abandoned by the developers.
I have two degrees in Computing (mostly Java) and Processing allows me to write code that works right away as described in its excellent reference. Having wrestled with Java in some largish projects only to find they are impossible to deploy, I find myself using Processing more and more. It is enjoyable to use and deploy, I think it will attract more females into Computer Science, especially  when they see the small amount of sensible, aptly named code that is needed to produce beautiful programs.
I am over 50 and a granny so my view might be behind the times though  Smiley

 
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