Sounds like frustration setting in.

Since kinect is a Microsoft product I assume that it will be possible to use Visual Basic.net with the Visual Studio IDE (express version are available for free download.)

You deal with all the issues of the language itself for it to not even be faster than other languages.

What issues?

What issues?

 

Yours, obviously.

When I asked what issues I was not being rude I was interested since you said you excelled at Visual Basic (my reason for suggesting VB.net) and PHP and I was wondering whether there was anything specific about Java. (i.e. being and object orientated language or whether it was the Processing IDE which is not designed for large scale sofwtware development)

Sorry if I caused offence.

I am serious. Everyone has different issues with Java.

Everyone has different issues with every language until you learn to develop proficiently in it.

You could try out the C++ style visual tools, like OpenFrameworks, but if you're struggling with Java and the simplified syntax of Processing, that platform will likely be more of a challenge.

C++ or C# is even worse. What I want is a fast RAD. A VB-/Python-RAD that can create fast C++ or machine Code for instance.

So, Processing/Java isn't perfect. But there's absolutely no need to be this impolite. Judging from your recent posts on the forum (and your interest in kinect hacking) you are obviously not a beginner programmer and know your way around several programming languages.

LEGO bricks are very easy to assemble.

maxtrix.net

Troll.

LEGO bricks are very easy to assemble.

That is true. Lego Mindstorms is impressive.

sure they are, but kind of complex comparing with standard lego,
that complexity translates into much more fun.
you can do with midstorms what you can't with the standard ones.

i really understand your pain Roger.
sometimes i just want to cut my wrists,
but that happened in all languages i've learned,

to be honest with you, i really like processing, even though there's lots of things to be improved, it takes me to a high level of freedom.

i'm sure you're not trying to be unpolite, just having a bad programmer's day.
take a deep breath, smoke a cigarette, it's friday go out for a couple of pints, and then....
you just share your troubles here in the forum, i'm almost sure you're not alone in the kinnetic issues.

ps: probabily i'll by a kinetic this year, i hope someone writes a full bullet proof library for it until then (YOU).

maxtrix.net

hello all,

I find this discussing inspiring.

I love processing and have best results and producivity with it...
I never achieved that with any other language under Windows...
Thank you.
Also the forum is very supportive.
I appreciate that too.
Thanks to all the guys and ladies in the forum!

Anyway, having said that I can also understand Roger.
When I started programming in 1987 or so, using BASIC or PASCAL it was cool and all.
But imagine how computers on the hardware site developed from that time till now.
Next to me lies my iPAd - what a step from the Apple ][ we used back then!
It is an enormous development there on the hardware side - and on the software side as well,
I remember we didn't have a mouse or graphical OS back then.

But, and here comes a big one, the software development programs, the programming languages haven't developed as fast.
On the contrary. And that can really make you angry sometimes.

I remember using HyperCard
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperCard
for the first time on a mac (a Macintosh 128k?) somewhere around 1989 and writing
a small Tic tac toe with the sister of a friend.

The possibilities there just to draw your buttons and your game layout with the mouse were amazing and much better than our beloved processing today (unless you use a GUI library which is not part of the core and has a steep learning curve) - over 20 years later! Imagine that. Makes you want to scream.
The speed of the executable program is also not high.

I think that java or processing are very strict with their variables is a big advantage in the long run. When I come into an environment where you can decide this degree of strictness (e.g. Word VBA), first thing I do, switch the environment to strict. Because then when you have a typo the system tells you so instead of trying to run with a wrong var.

Anyway, processing is missing whole strands, such as a modern IDE, a real search, a search over multiple tabs etc., re-factoring, auto-completion... even the IDE of Word VBA is much better.

Saying that the modern programming languages are just not good is a fair statement when you compare the development in that field with the development in the hardware department or the Internet or Siri...
It is is a fair statement that also applies to processing but also to the rest of programming languages. So it's not meant to be disrespectful. 

I love processing because of the easy learning and the 3D and graphical abilities. It's amazing the productivity with it!
In VB with directdraw it is much worse to learn it.

So I love processing and I am still looking for a even cooler programming languages.

Just to give you an example, on the iPad I programmed using Codea this evening.

It's very graphical and comes e.g. with a whole bunch of cool sounds of balls hitting a wall or explode. That is very convenient. It also has a lot of beautiful sprites you can pick and use in your own games. That's lovely. It has a build in physic engine and all kinds of examples.
Codea has it's own troubles and all but it has some neat ideas. But it is 10 bucks or so.

I wish Steve Jobs would have taken on the challenge to make a modern programming language (I think XCode and so on you use for iOS are very userunfriendly).


Greetings, Chrisir  

Wow, Chrisir, that was a nice post.  ;-)

Beside the "Yours, obviously" answer, which can be interpreted in various ways (apparently, wasn't intended to be rude), Roger's messages remain polite, except for the "crap" line which can be seen as offensive by the Processing lovers...
But indeed, it is just the expression of frustration and shouldn't be taken too seriously.
The last message is a bit aggressive, but Ale's messages are aggressive too. So, just tone down a bit, please, and let this discussion to be less passionate.

Everybody has the right to have an opinion, and Roger is mostly expression his: he hates Processing, or, at least, the Java language.

Indeed, it is a rigid language, verbose and not permissive.
That's quite an advantage in big projects, because permissive languages often leave the room for lot of errors, like declaring a variable and using another (because of a typo, perhaps), like you can do in JavaScript, for example.
It means that big projects with permissive (non-strict) languages need lot of testing code, often as much as the "real" code, otherwise you drive into a wall. (But we also write tests for Java projects, of course.)
Thus, it is a language hard to use for beginners, which can be seen as paradoxical as Processing targets people not familiar with programming. But it tries to simplify it a bit (hiding classes for first contact, reducing boilerplate) to avoid bad first impression...
And somehow it teaches rigor, in variable management, etc.
And one of its advantages is the huge amount of libraries that are available, including Kinect interfaces, etc.

Yes, a language where every variable is global (some Basics, JavaScript, etc.) is simpler, but it is soon a nightmare to manage for larger projects, or you have, if the language allows it, to start to declare your variables as local. Thus you are in the same boat.

Kinect and OpenNI are not tied to Java. I am sure there are interfaces for it in other languages. There are thousands of languages around, so there is some choice. I think Lua can be a good choice, as it is used in lot of games, has a simple syntax, is easy to interface and has some game engines built around it, like LuaAV, Lubyk, Löve or even Moai (and there are more!).

But you will find (more or less) frustration in all languages...

let this discussion to be less passionate. 

Discussions are in need of being passionate. Without it, they could be executed by machines.

But indeed, it is just the expression of frustration and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

1. The surface itself looks nice
2. The surface itself loads fast
3. The program is small.

" by those who cannot change the processing code, it shouldn't be taken too seriously. Those who can should take it to heart and re-think their approach of using java and their target group."
The "too seriously" was about your usage of the "crap" word.
Everybody can change the Processing code (given sufficient knowledge, of course).
Most of the target group is happy with Processing. More or less, but not much more than for any other language, once the first traps have been avoided, the common idioms are learnt to be mastered (using global variables wisely, etc.).
There might be simpler languages, and they are available for use...

Side note: I appreciate a lot AutoHotkey for the power it offers, but I can't say I find the language nice, nor even "simple", even if, like Processing, it attracts beginners.

What a pleasant, measured and tolerant response you've received from everyone, considering your rude, troll-like post. 

David, fortunately for you I am in a good mood right now. But this might change and it is interesting how much useful information is on your website about you.

"David, fortunately for you I am in a good mood right now. But this might change and it is interesting how much useful information is on your website about you."

" I won't read your answer to this."

Dude, please don't be so childish. I must applaud the patience and kindness of all the people responding here, use it as an example. So you don't like java/processing, move on then. Stop bothering us. It is not helping you and it sure as hell is not helping us.

Sorry but this is what i had to write down...

"I am only using it because processing is the only kinect programming language that I am aware of that is free."
-If it's just about the kinect why not use processing merely as a gate to whatever language you do like?

<Edit> @David Wilson- Great portfolio btw. :)

frid this is an awesome answer. I did not read it.

Microsoft's Kinect SDK is the best development platform for Kinect right now (and probably will be for a while). You can access the API through C++ or C#. It sounds like those aren't your preferred languages to use but there isn't really an alternative at this point. 

the 10100010110100101110 language is the best

hellochar, those two are even worse than processing/java. I guess I will complete my current project in processing and start with c++ then. Yuck.

@Roger

Another alternative is running a graphical programming environment. There are Kinect projects for PureData, Max/MSP, and VVVV. These can use the TUIO/OpenNI/other framework, and then can output to all sorts of things. Following a PureData "how to" for Kinect, and then plugging it into whatever preferred programming language might wind up being a little simpler and easier to keep track of.

Geez, if you don't like processing, then don't bother us about it. You're wasting the time you could be using doing something else, like looking for an alternative, or maybe reading a book.

Keep the below quote in mind:

An opinion is like a penis, it’s okay to have one, it’s okay to be proud of it, hell, it’s even okay to play with it (in your own time). But it’s not okay to whip it out in public and try to shove it down the throats of others.

I think java is a good language..why do you so hate it??

http://www.shiffman.net/2010/11/14/kinect-and-processing/

You should try Kinect for Windows SDK V1, it works with VB.NET.